In this first episode of Aviation Week Network's new air transport podcast, Window Seat, editors discuss the fast-changing attitudes and rules related to mask wearing in airports and onboard airliners.

Window Seat will come out every week, bringing together editors and guests to explore hot topics related to airlines, airports and the air transport service and supply chain.

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Rush Transcript

Karen Walker:

So hello, everyone. And thank you for joining us for the launch edition of Window Seat, our new Aviation Week air transport podcast. I'm Air Transport World, and Group Air Transport Editor-in-Chief, Karen Walker. And I'm looking forward to sharing a discussion each week with my fellow editors and analysts at Aviation Week, ATW, Aviation Daily, Routes and CAPA. We'll be sharing information and thoughts on hot topics related to airlines, airports, and the air transport service, and supply chain. So welcome on board, take your seat, close your tray table, and then enjoy.

Karen Walker:

And kicking things off today, we're going to be discussing the fast-changing attitudes and rules related to mask wearing in airports and onboard airliners. In the early weeks of the COVID pandemic, and before vaccines were available, airlines and airports started requiring passengers and crews to wear masks. It was a sensible part of a multi-layered approach to air travel hygiene safety, that also saw stepped up disinfection processes, and critically, reliance on the hospital grade HEPA air filters, that equip most modern airliners. It was a highly effective policy, with the data showing virus transmission risk during flight remaining incredibly low, even at the height of the pandemic. In many cases, including The U.S., The UK, and European Union countries, governments then made mask wearing mandatory by law. The U.S. Transportation Security Administration, and FAA, have extended their mask mandates several times, with the latest extension set to expire on April 18th.

Karen Walker:

But in what seems to be a change of thinking, the CEOs of America's largest airlines have now written to the Biden administration, asking for the mask rule to be lifted. Meanwhile, London, Heathrow Airport has lifted its mask rule, and British Airways and Virgin Atlantic have followed suit, with important caveats. So what's prompting the change, and can we expect to see a global shift in attitudes towards airport and onboard mask wearing? To talk about this, I am joined by my colleagues, ATW European Bureau Chief, Victoria Moores, and Aviation Week U.S. Congressional Editor, Ben Goldstein. Welcome both. Victoria, the first signs of change came out of The UK, which no longer requires COVID tests, or proof of vaccination for incoming air travelers, tell us what Heathrow and The UK airlines have announced?

Victoria Moores:

Yeah, Karen, good day to you. And what we've seen in the UK is a progressive relaxation. For a long while there I think the requirements were quite confused here, but what we saw is that those national restrictions have been dropped, and we've seen Heathrow following suit with those national restrictions, saying that going through their airports, you no longer need to wear masks, that's very much a parallel for the day-to-day experience here in The UK. And then with them, British Airways and Virgin both came in and they said, "We are considering following suit." Now what that means for the airlines is that so long as both ends of the route don't require mask wearing, then passengers don't need to wear masks onboard. So it's very, very specific, like you say, with caveats, the rule changes.

Karen Walker:

Yeah, exactly. It's a sort of a lifting of rules and yet not. And I saw today that list that British Airways has put out, of all the countries where people will still have to wear masks throughout the flying, and it's a long list, of course. So as you say, that's an interesting part of where things stand now. Ben, tell us what's happening in The U.S.

Ben Goldstein:

Hi, Karen. So like you mentioned, we've had mask mandate in place since February, 2021. It was set to expire on March 18th, the TSA pushed it back by 30 days until April 18th, and it said while doing so that it was waiting for the CDC, The Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, to craft a new policy framework going forward, to address the question of mask wearing in flights and in airports. So we're coming up against that deadline, at the same time, the industry is shifting its tune. Airlines have been very supportive up until now, of the mandate, but now, for the first time, we have the CEOs of virtually all the major passenger and cargo airlines writing to President Biden in a letter, and urging him to lift the mandate, as well as COVID testing for international arrivals on April 18th, when it is set to expire. In their letter they mention that the mask policy is no longer aligned with the reality on the ground, that we're seeing, because mask mandates have almost universally been dropped in almost all 50 states in most businesses.

Ben Goldstein:

So that's a major shift, and at the same time, we're seeing a shift in labor, the unions. So the Southwest Airlines Pilot Association has also called on the administration to drop the mandates, because they blame it partially for arising an unruly passenger behavior. And the other big unions, The Airline Pilots Association, and the Association of Flight Attendants are either remaining quiet on the topic, or neutral, which is a big shift from their previous steads. So we're seeing a big change between how the airlines and the unions viewed these mandates, and we're also seeing a shift in sort of the political sentiment. It seems like there's really being a message of return to normalcy that's being stressed, coming from President Biden, all the way down. So I think it's hard to say exactly what's going to happen on April 18th, but I think there's a good chance that these mandates will be let to expire then.

Karen Walker:

So you raised two interesting factors I think there, Ben, the first that you said about this sort of contradiction, if you like, across America at least now, that your world in terms of mask rules and things has almost normalized, until the moment you walk through that airport door, and then everything goes back to sort of 2020, if you like. So I think that seems to be one of the things that the airline CEOs are wanting to address, if I'm correct, that they want to see a more consistent application of where these rules come in, does that sound right?

Ben Goldstein:

Yeah, absolutely, Karen. They don't want the airlines and the airports to be any different than other businesses, or modes of transportation in that regard. The risk of contracting COVID in flight is no greater than it would be anywhere else, and in fact, it is probably less, according to a lot of industry studies. And so they think that with the summer season coming up, the airlines believe that now is probably the time that it makes sense to get rid of these mandates, and really embrace, hopefully, a return to pre-COVID levels of demand this spring and summer.

Karen Walker:

Exactly. And this is also at a time where the airlines, not just in The States, but across Europe as well, I would guess, are really hoping for a good return of demand for air travel in this summer. And I will say, that from my experience of flying lately within The United States, although you are supposed to wear a mask, once you get through TSA security, mask wearing has become very much more patchy, and nobody's enforcing it once you get past security. So you're sort of already seeing it, and nobody's going up to anybody if they are not wearing a mask.

Karen Walker:

And then the other point you raised, Ben, was this whole steep rise in unruly, and sometimes violent behavior on board aircraft by passengers, and in many cases, sadly, they've attacked flight attendants. That seems to be part of the mix as well here as to why they want the mask rule lifted, in that you've got even more now of a contrast of where people are not wearing masks elsewhere, so they don't see why they should wear it on a plane, and that is causing issues. Do you think that's a valid point?

Ben Goldstein:

Yeah, absolutely, I do. The numbers don't lie, there has been a dramatic spike in these unruly passenger incidents in 2020 and 2021. If you ask for the unions, they say the majority of these incidents stem ultimately from confrontations over mask wearing, and passengers who don't want to wear the mask. And frankly, the unions are tired of, the flight attendants in particular, of acting as policemen, and policewomen, and it forces them to take on a level of confrontation in their job that ultimately does lead to escalation in some cases. And unfortunately for them, that has led to a number of incidents where flight attendants and crew members have been harmed. It doesn't excuse the passenger behavior, nothing excuses that behavior, but to the extent that enforcing these policies have added a layer of stress to these frontline workers during the pandemic, and it's just something that they feel now, given the improving situation with the pandemic, that they no longer want to have to deal with, and frankly, I don't blame them.

Karen Walker:

Yeah, absolutely. Victoria, can we talk a little bit about that? What still seems to me like a rather awkward position in The UK, in that, as we mentioned, there's a whole list of places where you join a UK flight, but you're still going to have to wear a mask. How difficult it is that going to be to police, if you like, by the airlines?

Victoria Moores:

I think that one of the problems, as you mentioned there, Karen, it's the unpredictability. So as a passenger, traveling to the airport, knowing what to expect on my flight, which has been the problem all the way through COVID, with the COVID testing restrictions and everything else. And like you say, the list that we saw there on BA's website was very long of the number of places that you would still need to wear a mask. I was actually struggling to establish which markets you don't need it for, and it appears to be countries like Denmark, Iceland, Hungary, we're seeing easyJet also joining this relaxation, but it does depend on both ends of the route.

Victoria Moores:

And I think for passengers, that's going to lead to confusion, and what we want is the predictability, the stability in the journey, where you get back to normal as best you can. And it's a clear sign that we are not quite there in terms of the normal yet as the number of countries do relax their restrictions. I think that's going to get simpler and the list will grow to the point where we have markets that you can travel to without it. But for example, in Italy, the restrictions are still very strict in shops and bars, just in general day-to-day life. In France, I believe that masks are still required on public transport. So I think this is a reflection of the patchwork that we've got across Europe in terms of the restrictions, in a similar way to what we've had through COVID, and we really need that consistency now.

Karen Walker:

Ben, it was interesting, you were saying that you believe that there's a strong possibility now that the masks mandate here, when it finishes on April 18th, that will be the last... Masked off, if you like, from there on. That would make a huge difference on that transatlantic market, in terms of, so sort of then that's a big market for The UK carriers, the British carriers, of Virgin and British Airways going to The U.S., no masks required either end. But as you say, a Lufthansa, or an Air France could be then in a different situation where, because of their home country, because of the EU, they'd still have to wear masks. Do you think that would make a difference in terms of demand for travel?

Ben Goldstein:

Well, I really can't say for sure whether the masks will have an impact on demand, but I think it really goes to demonstrate the point that patchwork of varying requirements is really impractical for the industry to maintain moving forward. IATA has been stressing that point, I think so has the Airports Council International, and in order to really facilitate smooth travel, and a true return to pre-COVID levels of demand, I do think it's next necessary for the whole industry to be on the same page, instead of just The United Kingdom and The United States. We want to have the European Union on board and other regions as well, to make things just as seamless as possible.

Karen Walker:

What do you think the situation will look like by the summer in Europe, Victoria? Do you think there could be a growing move following The UK?

Victoria Moores:

Yeah, I think there's potential to see a wider relaxation. So I think that there is a transition here going from that pandemic emergency situation, into an endemic living with COVID situation. So I think that is the pattern towards the relaxation, we've seen markets like Latvia come on and say, "Right, okay, now we're dropping some of our testing restrictions." Et cetera. So I think that mask policy would naturally follow suit after the testing requirements are relaxed. I think the one caveat on that is if we end up seeing new strains, this relaxation hasn't really been tested since we saw the wave before Christmas, where all of a sudden we thought that we were getting into more of a harmonized approach, and then everybody put on the travel restrictions again. So I think that that's going to be the testing point, again, it's back to this whole patchwork, if we end up with off/on that's just as confusing.

Karen Walker:

I concur there, that's the danger, that if we get a surge, or a new variant, does everybody go back to... I don't know, sometimes that genie may be more difficult to put back in the bottle after... If you lift the masks, people now know what it's like to be doing this, and it may be more difficult to put back into place. Do you feel, both of you, do you feel that there will be generally a welcoming of this among passengers and crews, no masks?

Victoria Moores:

For me, Karen, I think it probably varies. I think it depends on your approach in general to the pandemic. And I think there's also vulnerable people to think about as well. So, okay, we may have the vaccination program that's being rolled out, but if some people, for whatever reason, might not be able to be vaccinated, if long COVID might be a real risk to them personally, I think there is that question about the equality of travel being open to all, and certain individuals not be able to get onto an aircraft to get from A to B. In terms of the general response, I think that people are generally relieved to not have to wear masks anymore, it's not fun, it's not comfortable. But then I think there's also the question of respect. So for example, cabin crews were seeing hundreds, thousands of passengers come through all of the time, and they're exposed to all of those people. So I think it's that question of respect for other people, and whereabout you sit with that?

Karen Walker:

Ben?

Ben Goldstein:

I agree, I think the unions, like I mentioned earlier, either support lifting the mandate, or they're remaining publicly neutral, which I think indicates that they've accepted that the mandate is going to come off. As for the general public, like I mentioned, most of us are not wearing masks in our day-to-day lives as we go to the grocery store, as we go out, and so I think from that perspective, most people will not be bothered, and they will welcome it. And for those who are extra cautious about the pandemic, they're free to continue to wear masks, that's important to mention.

Karen Walker:

Yes.

Ben Goldstein:

That would apply to maybe older people, or the immunocompromised. But also, most Americans have either been vaccinated, or had COVID, or both. Hospitalizations are down, deaths are down, and people understand this. So I think generally, most people will be okay with the mask mandate being lifted. And for those who feel uncomfortable, they can either continue wearing a mask, or not travel, but I suspect that would be a small number of people.

Karen Walker:

So I'm going to just ask you, if I may, a personal question, as two people who of course do travel a lot in normal set circumstances for your work, how you feel about it. Victoria, would you like your next flight to be mask optional?

Victoria Moores:

I'm conflicted, Karen, I'm very conflicted on this. It's a little bit going back to what Ben just said, it's all very well people who are vulnerable are able to wear their masks, but the fact is that whoever wears their mask, they're wearing it for other people, they're not wearing it for themselves, because you can't protect yourself by wearing a mask, you protect others. So I don't want to be wearing a mask on a flight, it's not pleasant, but I do tend to be more on the cautious side of wearing a mask still in supermarkets and things, because I think that this is a question of choice. We've got to the point where you don't necessarily have to, but then that doesn't necessarily mean that it's a good idea. Mask wearing is still encouraged, so I think where possible, so long as it's not a very long flight, I might be willing to still wear a mask.

Karen Walker:

Sounds good. Ben?

Ben Goldstein:

Yeah, as someone who follows the industry, I would be happy to see optional mask for us, because I think it's good for the industry, and I think it signals a real return to normalcy, which we all need. Personally, will I wear a mask? I'm undecided. However, one thing I've noticed is when you do wear masks, you're less likely to pick up colds and get sick, so from that standpoint, I may be more inclined to continue wearing one. If anything, just for the peace of mind that I don't catch a cold while traveling, but I think it's a good thing for the industry, that we do begin to phase these out, assuming that the public health situation continues to improve.

Karen Walker:

I think that's a very good point, Ben, I think we may have learned a wider lesson about, like in the usual flu season, for example, that a mask is actually a pretty simple way to reduce one's risk. Victoria, Ben, thank you so much for joining me today, and for your insights. And thank you to our listeners, I hope you'll join us again next week when we'll be coming from The UK, and The CAPA Airline Leader Summit, which is bringing together an amazing list of senior executives across the airline, airport, and air transport supply industry. Make sure you don't miss it by subscribing to the Window Seat Podcast on Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts. Until then, I hope you're looking forward to your next flight. This is Karen Walker disembarking from Window Seat.